Rockland County, NY 36" build with pictures.

[ronwass]

Re: Rockland County, NY 36" build with pictures.

Thank you all for the good advice. Explain a little more about these "through bolted kickers" Tscarborough? I can't quite picture them with my limited knowledge.

Also thanks, Mikku for the advice. It may not be clear, but the inner of the two joists on the long edges are held up with metal hangers attached to the posts. Do you still think I need notching?

If the picture isn't clear, I was trying to highlight the small spot that you can see the metal hangar peeking out. It's the kind of hangar where the flanges fold inside, commonly used for joists attached to the very end of a deck ledger board.

Concrete pour day is Friday, weather permitting. A friend is available that day to help me lift concrete into mixer. Can I do it in a slight drizzle, weather speaking?

Online calculators calculate 10-12 bags of concrete for a 4 inch slab, about 20 square feet. My slab will be about 22 square feet, but only 3.5 inches thick. Speaking of that, do I do the 3.5 inches in addition to the 1/2 inch hardibacker board? Or do I include it in the total?

[stonecutter]

Re: Rockland County, NY 36" build with pictures.

Ron,

A kicker is just a brace, usually on an angle. But im pretty sure that isn't being suggested, in this case, the brace will function like a jack stud does in framed openings...supporting a header.

[stonecutter]

Re: Rockland County, NY 36" build with pictures.

Slight drizzle for a pour is fine...much better than a blazing hot day. Keep the plastic handy if in case it gets worse and to cover up when you finish....you don't want excess water in the slab.

[mikku]

Re: Rockland County, NY 36" build with pictures.

The customer always being right - phrase refers to they ultimately hold the purse string. You can argue till you are blue in the face, the customer may threaten to take a case to court, or whatever. If you can satisfy your customer by doing quality work to their expectation. You will get "paid" and that is the KEY word in staying in business... Keep your customers happy, collect your money, build a good reputation--and reap the rewards of building nice things and using your imagination and skills! And part of doing a good job is "exceeding building requirements" in doing better that what is "minimally required" so that you do not get troubling call backs! The call backs are what kill you. A little 50cent job can cost thousands of dollars just to send in a crew to do some little stinky thing that you should have done right in the first place!

What in this quote do you disagree with? It is a formula of good business practice. I see nothing foolish in what I said.

99% of the time, when you meet a customer you really do not know what they will be like to work with.....with a few exceptions. I find working with people who are moderate income--like most tradespeople...They are very easy to work with. They understand that it requires a lot of work and planning to do something and they do not hesitate paying a bill. There is another class of people who are easy to work with---those who are very wealthy--I mean really wealthy. They know what they want and have no hesitation in paying a bill.

The group of people who I have had the most trouble working with or collecting are those who want all to believe that they are wealthy...the wanabee wealthy. They will do everything in their power to make it impossible to satisfy them--and if you can...they want a discount to top off their satisfaction!

There are other groups ...but if you have been in the business for a while, you know what to look out for. These are just a few observations I have had over the years... But I have never failed to collect on a bill, and never had to use any legal means to collect. A few have taken longer---and done installments but they are all clear now!

I hope that you are not seeing something in my words that is not there or implied. Thanks

[Tscarborough]

Re: Rockland County, NY 36" build with pictures.

Actually, I am suggesting 45 degree supports at each corner, as much for looks as for support.

Mikku, let's not pollute this gentlemans thread with business philosophy.

[mikku]

Re: Rockland County, NY 36" build with pictures.

I stand by my building advice. Notching in would be the best course, second add cleats as Gulf suggested. The rest is just decoration. If it adds nothing, why waste the time. You should build like you did not need special fasteners--only dowels--or wedges like timber framing. Follow that technique and you will be fine. But these techniques take a little time and talent to master. The easy way out is seldom the best way! Do a web search on timber framing, you might actually enjoy what you find.

I suppose someone is going to quote "the easy way out is seldom the best way" to muddy the waters again--Please don't waste time or space!

[ronwass]

Picture of hangar for the record

Here is a picture of the joist hangers I used in case it wasn't clear.

Sorry, my dumb mind still can't picture how I would put 45 deg. corner braces on here. I'm very grateful for the suggestion. If you have a chance to point to a picture of what you are talking about that would be amazing.

Unfortunately, weather report for tomorrow is for thunderstorms all day. I'm going to delay the pour until Monday, memorial day. I hope I can get a friend to come over. Of course, I'll have to feed him and his wife barbeque to entice them.

Mikku, I am going to take your advice and add some kind of attachment from the rebar, out of the concrete and into the post. Since you think my frostproofing is not perfect, and it likely my stand will eventually go off level, it would be a shame if the 800 pound slab, with 800 pounds of brick on top of it slid off. (I still dispute that it will come anywhere close to "popping out of the ground.")

[mikku]

Re: Rockland County, NY 36" build with pictures.

Hello Ronwass:
The advice is to run your rebar around the perimeter first. If you have something to bend rebar to 90 deg bends, make sure that the "L" section is (40x1/2") = 20" length. You can cut 4 pieces and make identical bends and you should be fine. Use some regular tie wire to assemble the joints where they cross. Additional rebar added to make a 6" grid both ways would make an excellent slab. Rebar is extremely cheap--so is concrete when you mix it yourself. Concrete by itself is brittle, the combination of concrete and reinforcement make it a superior building product.

when you decide to pour your slab, make sure that the rebar is elevated from your lower form. this can be done with broken pieces of concrete block, just small pieces that will hold your mat elevated when you install the concrete.

Next issue: Frost-footings: I was called out by a moderator and James saying that I was confrontational. I react badly when someone disputes something that I know as a fact. Enough said: You are asking about frost and I'll try to give you some examples.

Frost does not act on single things inserted in the ground, it acts on "everything" in the frost zone.

If your building code says 3' frost footings, then if the bottom of your footing is 3' below frost and it is part of a foundation assembly that is monolithic, then you should have no problems with heaving. But IMHO, the footer and anything placed on it must be attached OR the post or sonotube or cement block will lift and separate from the footer.

Building codes are not written to single out your oven structure, they are written to cover all types of construction. If you build a 10 story building in your area and have inadequate depth frost footings, the frost will act on the foundation and lift the building. Or seriously break up the foundation.

Think of frozen water mains. Some are cast concrete, some cast iron, some PVC or other composite materials. Some of the bursting is caused by the soil around a pipe heaving and physically breaking the pipe. Most water pipes if water is actively flowing through them will not break only under extreme circumstances.

Think of frost simply as water in the ground. Look at your ice tray in your refrigerator next time you mix yourself a drink. You put water into your tray level with the plastic form and when ice forms, it is domed. That is what water does in the ground...it expands when it freezes and it grabs onto anything that is embedded in the ground and raises it. Fence posts do rise, the dirt settles beneath the post each year and it eventually either completely rots off or pops out. Ranchers are constantly repairing fences and resetting posts in cold regions. I'm not making this up--I have no reason to do so!

I have done several foundations on homes where the owner did not want a deep foundation installed--below frost. Usually in Minnesota and northern climates, basements result from complying to building codes. If an owner does not want a basement you still need to address the frost issue. I have used grade beams which are simply a footing placed on edge instead of flat---double up on the rebar and install styrofoam insulation to the vertical surface. In addition to that, styrofoam laid horizontally around the perimeter of the structure --sloping slightly away will prevent frost from getting below the grade beam. But this design is based upon the retaining heat in the floor assembly...the styrofoam prevents the heat from easily escaping--and the heat loss keeps the ground from freezing. The vertical width from the foundation equals the "code requirement for frost footing" If your code says 3'--then horizontal styrofoam 3' width should satisfy code requirements.

I do not know if this technique is broadly accepted for construction. On the projects that I did, we submitted architectural plans; signed by the designing architect and other documentation by structural engineer. In all cases, the plans were approved. Some of the structures built were 30 years ago with no signs of failure to foundations.

There are other studies for perma frost areas where you build so that no heat escapes your structure that will act to "thaw" the frozen ground. So your are maintaining an "always frozen" build and the expansion is eliminated.

The foundation type that I earlier explained is sold commercially as something like "BIG FOOT" but this is a recent product. I developed my ideas in the 1970's well before "Big foot was marketed".

I really don't think you need my building advice. I am sure you are not going to start disassemblying what you have. That would be "crazy foolish". When I was giving the advice, you were in the "build phase"--easy to make adjustments.
Live with what you have.

As far as treated materials goes, read up on it. I do not know what the current treating chemical is but many include arsenic. I would have to actually have to search the meaning of "ACQ" treatment. Still not nice stuff to have around kids.
It has its' place but not where easy contact is possible.

This post is addressed to you--Ronwass. I would be happy to help you in any way. I hope your had a great day today... Japan was sunny and clear--we had temperatures in the high 80's and it was wonderful.. A great late spring day!

[ronwass]

ready to pour tomorrow

OK, here I am all rebar-ed up. The weather report is looking good for tomorrow, not too hot. I may have to do a little more fine adjusting of the forms. My plan is to take my borrowed mixer, put it up about a foot on a piece of plywood on blocks, so that it will be not too high to load and just about the right height to pour out directly onto the platform.

I'm thinking it is going to be about 10 80 lb. bags.

I've never poured so much concrete before. If my 1/2 inch durock board splits, I'm going to have a big mess to clean up off my lawn below the platform.

Wish me luck.

[Les]

Re: ready to pour tomorrow

If my 1/2 inch durock board splits, I'm going to have a big mess to clean up off my lawn below the platform.

Wish me luck.

You want to support the durock. If it doesn't break there is a good chance it will bow. Just run a couple of 2x4's length wise and brace them. It's going to weigh a lot more than 800 lbs because you will be adding a lot of water.

[ronwass]

Re: Rockland County, NY 36" build with pictures.

Thanks Les. There are five 2x6 joists below the durock. Check out post number 55 from the previous page:

http://www.fornobravo.com/forum/6/ro...tml#post153308

I'm not too worried.

[cobblerdave]

Re: ready to pour tomorrow

You want to support the durock. If it doesn't break there is a good chance it will bow. Just run a couple of 2x4's length wise and brace them. It's going to weigh a lot more than 800 lbs because you will be adding a lot of water.

Gudday
I secound that remark, I have been down this path before,make yourself a platform so you step up to throw your mix in, you shoulders and back will appreciate it at the end of the day.
Regards dave

[Les]

Re: Rockland County, NY 36" build with pictures.

Thanks Les. There are five 2x6 joists below the durock. Check out post number 55 from the previous page:

http://www.fornobravo.com/forum/6/ro...tml#post153308

I'm not too worried.

Just viewed the pic - you are golden....

[mikku]

Re: Rockland County, NY 36" build with pictures.

Your slab is going to come out just fine! You have joists below that support your durarock and it is only 3 1/2" thick--so it is not going to give any edge pressure on your 2x4's.

I just did a little slab like this yesterday for under a unit bath. That is a KD bath enclosure that will be installed tomorrow. I calculated your volume and mine was almost exactly the same. I mixed the concrete with a 1/2" mixer drill and paddle. Dumped the dry mix into my 60 liter rubber bucket and whipped the stuff up. My mixture calls for 25KG dry mix concrete and 3.8 liters water. I found that a little stiff for the drill so I added another .75 liters.

If you measure your water accurately, you can make repeated batches and the concrete will always be consistant. Don't know how much portland cement is in your dry mix concrete--so cannot give you any recommendations. The bag should have the recipe listed. follow the recommendations and it will be fine.

with a mixer drill used by plasterers on small jobs, I mixed up my cement in about an hour. 15- 25kg bags. (825lbs) , Yours - 10 - 80#bags (800 lbs). Better if the cement is a little stiff, then use a float trowel---you can make it with a piece of wood--(reacts like a magfloat) and agitate the concrete so that it surrounds the rebar consistantly and fills the corners of the form. Once you have all the concrete in the form, you can use a (maybe 6' straightedge-and agitate it back and forth over the surface--using your form as a guide. It does not have to be glass smooth just the same height.

The next day, you can still knock down high spots with a piece of cement block--just rub it across the surface if you have any little humps.

Just try to get it as level as possible before it gets too hard. Don't spend a lot of time trying to get things glass smooth. If you were a concrete finishing professional, you would know how many times to trowel the surface--best to just get it flat then leave it alone!

Good luck on your pour, I see that you did not have anything to make 90 degree bends to the rebar! so what, it will work fine with whatever you stick into the form as long as it is metal.

[david s]

Re: Rockland County, NY 36" build with pictures.

[QUOTE=mikku;153781 Dumped the dry mix into my 60 liter rubber bucket and whipped the stuff up. My mixture calls for 25KG dry mix concrete and 3.8 liters water. I found that a little stiff for the drill so I added another .75 liters.

[/QUOTE]

By adding that much more water your concrete will be weaker. If you use a superplasticizer you can get it more fluid without having to add that extra water.