Texman Build

[texman]

Re: Texman Build

I built the arch this weekend and set course 4 and started course 5. I was happy with the results of my labor thus far, until i was posting pics this morning. I was looking at the pictures of the arch and saw the droop.
I have literally spent hours reading threads to avoid it, and here i am infected with it. It would be tonight before i could remove any bricks, so i dont think i want to do that (mortar really set by then) I will go back and study the lessons i thought i had learned from the ones that mastered the droop and see if i can both figure out what i did wrong as well as how to fix it now.
I still think i did good on the arch. Getting better with the mortar too.
I am checking level in these pictures as you can see. Pretty good, but slightly lower on the right when facing the oven.
I didnt even see that droop till i was looking at the pictures. It is sneaky.
Tracy
I am using the steel pieces to hold brick in place (when i mix mortar too wet)
learning...
(i could build a pretty good oven if i started over now)

[texman]

Re: Texman Build

Just to clear up any confusion. A brick that is stood upright with the 2" side as the face is a sailor. An upright brick with the 4.5 face showing is a sailor.

Thanks-i used sailors then. first two courses vertical and then started the dome curve.
Tracy

[Lburou]

Droop is just a bump in the road Tracy!

As far as your 'droop' goes, is the height of the arch correct? If yes, I wouldn't look back and would leave it alone. It is barely noticeable to me and it will not show much in the end....Noone will notice. If you must do it over, build a form with the size and shape you want and put the bricks against it. I'd leave it alone, there is very little value added with the effort to do it over....That is, unless you can't sleep at night

When you get older, many things 'droop'....your tolerance for 'droop' increases'....droop' isn't that bad in small doses

[OzOvenBuilder]

Re: Texman Build

Hi Texman, I've gotta say I love your kitchen setting, I'm looking forward to building some sort of cover at my home oven, with winter coming up it makes it impossible on the wet days!
Keep up the good work.

Russell.

[texman]

Re: Texman Build

Tracy,

This should go fairly quickly using your IT (I used a string). Start at the top-center and scribe down to the base of each side to get the line you want. Just make sure that you have spacers/wedges between the bricks to simulate the mortar gaps. Excellent build so far.
John

Thanks John. I got the mark done, but did not have that much to cut. The first two arch bricks were set and needed adjustment. I used the angle grinder to remove the unwanted brick and bring the first two arch bricks back to a smooth transition to the inner wall of oven. The rest of the arch bricks were close so i decided i would use the same approach on them after the arch was set. Not the correct way to do this, but i think it will work.
I wanted to get them perfect before setting, but the i am still struggling with the top of the arch to the dome placement. I had it all set (i thought) and then built the arch. Now my arch center top is about 3/8" off according to the IT. I can make it work, i hope.
I changed my approach to setting brick too. As you said earlier, "cut three of four and set them" I was doing that, but always starting at the right side (facing oven) Now that arch is set, i am alternating from one side to another instead of starting at right an continuing around. It is a lot more enjoyable and i think produces a better result since it gives the brick time to set before pushing against them to set the next brick. I will probably have to make some "custom" cuts to correct the droop and extra 3/8" on arch. If that is the worst, i will jump for joy!
Tracy

[texman]

Re: Droop is just a bump in the road Tracy!

As far as your 'droop' goes, is the height of the arch correct? If yes, I wouldn't look back and would leave it alone. It is barely noticeable to me and it will not show much in the end....Noone will notice. If you must do it over, build a form with the size and shape you want and put the bricks against it. I'd leave it alone, there is very little value added with the effort to do it over....That is, unless you can't sleep at night

When you get older, many things 'droop'....your tolerance for 'droop' increases'....droop' isn't that bad in small doses

Notice the shims under the arch form. Pull the shims out and the form comes right off. No shims and you destroy the arch when you remove the form.

Thanks Lee
The arch is good i think. 11.25'" height of arch, dome of 18.25=61.65%
I used the form like you described. I was thinking of removing the droop bricks next to arch. I dont want to touch that arch, i like it. It isn't perfect, but turned out nice i think.
I am sleeping good; especially after a day climbing around that oven setting brick. Thank you for the guidance.
Tracy

[texman]

Re: Texman Build

Hi Texman, I've gotta say I love your kitchen setting, I'm looking forward to building some sort of cover at my home oven, with winter coming up it makes it impossible on the wet days!
Keep up the good work.

Russell.

Thanks Russell. Great website "how to lay bricks"
The cover is great for me. I can work (and cook) just about year around and it stays dry. It gets so hot in Texas in the summer and when it rains, it comes in buckets usually. If you want all the goodies (electric, sewer, sink with hot/cold water, tv, stereo) having the outdoor kitchen share the same wall with the indoor kitchen makes it easier.
Tracy
I remember the young ones, funny stuff.

[deejayoh]

Re: Texman Build

Looking good Tracy!

Thanks John. I got the mark done, but did not have that much to cut. The first two arch bricks were set and needed adjustment. I used the angle grinder to remove the unwanted brick and bring the first two arch bricks back to a smooth transition to the inner wall of oven. The rest of the arch bricks were close so i decided i would use the same approach on them after the arch was set. Not the correct way to do this, but i think it will work.

I end up doing the exact same thing. Ground off the backs of the bricks to get a smooth transition. Mine looks "ok" though I had a tough time getting the round grinder to conform to the shape of the arch.

On the mortar technique, mine got a lot better when I got a jointing tool and stiff brush to tool/finish the joints

[Amac]

Re: Texman Build

I'd leave it alone, there is very little value added with the effort to do it over...

I'd agree with that asessment. Mind you I made no attempt to redo it.
I ended up with an egg shaped rather than a circular plugstone. You can gradually correct it with mortar as you go up and over the arch.

Thanks-i used sailors then. first two courses vertical and then started the dome curve.

I don't think so I think from what smackzed is saying the sailor course would result in narrower walls at the bottom of the dome. This from wikipedia agrees. The pic shows the six different brick positions.

Bond: a pattern in which brick is laid.
Stretcher: a brick laid horizontally, flat with the long side of the brick exposed on the outer face of a wall.
Header: a brick laid flat with the short end of the brick exposed.
Soldier: a brick laid vertically with the narrow ("stretcher") side exposed.
Sailor: a brick laid vertically with the broad side exposed.
Rowlock or Bull Header[1]: a brick laid on the long, narrow side with the small or "header" side exposed.
Shiner: a brick laid on the long narrow side with the broad side exposed.

Your usage seems to be the norm on the forum so most people understand what is meant.

[GianniFocaccia]

Re: Texman Build

Now my arch center top is about 3/8" off according to the IT. I can make it work, i hope.
I changed my approach to setting brick too. As you said earlier, "cut three of four and set them" I was doing that, but always starting at the right side (facing oven) Now that arch is set, i am alternating from one side to another instead of starting at right an continuing around. It is a lot more enjoyable and i think produces a better result since it gives the brick time to set before pushing against them to set the next brick. I will probably have to make some "custom" cuts to correct the droop and extra 3/8" on arch.

Firstly, that is one beautiful arch, Tracy! The symmetry and craftsmanship are undeniable. To say it turned out 'nice' is truly an understatetment.

Regarding building direction, I did the exact same thing as you, but started from the left side (facing the oven). By changing direction, I found that I changed my perspective of cutting/fitting, and it became easier to do (left brain/right brain kinda thing?)

Regarding droop, I would (did) re-cut the topmost brick adjacent to the arch on each side. If you increase the brick's length, it will force it to sit higher on the arch, helping to adjust for the droop. If I knew then what I know now, I would increase the outer joint size by 3/16" for each brick next to the arch. I was able to do this somewhat with my entire brick since I tapered (both top and bottom) every brick in the dome.

Regarding the 3/8" variance between your arch and IT, no worries. You can gradually make it up over several courses. Since this is something no one ever sees, if you still feel bad about it once your oven has been completed, you can always hoist one or three to your private secret each and every time you cook in it!

I hate to admit it, but for as much time and care I took in building my dome, every time I look inside my eye automatically goes right to the flaws and errors I made. The point? Don't worry - be happy.

John

[texman]

Re: Texman Build

Regarding droop, I would (did) re-cut the topmost brick adjacent to the arch on each side. If you increase the brick's length, it will force it to sit higher on the arch, helping to adjust for the droop. If I knew then what I know now, I would increase the outer joint size by 3/16" for each brick next to the arch. I was able to do this somewhat with my entire brick since I tapered (both top and bottom) every brick in the dome.

The point? Don't worry - be happy.

John

Thanks for the kind words. Would you remove the brick that i have in place now or start the next course?
Did you cut all four sides of each brick then?

[deejayoh]

Re: Texman Build

I had this same problem - a droop on one side of my dome that got "set" too much to remove. I ended up cutting a thin brick shim to go on top of it and normalize the height. I finally got the next chain in on top of this over the weekend and that approach seemed to work out just fine. I am finally over the top of the arch with my last chain and everything is nice and level all the way around.

Edit: but I will say that I am surprised how easy it is to get the bricks that are "Set" out with a well placed blow from a cold chisel. I have taken them out after ~36 hours and they still break out pretty clean. I my case I didn't notice the droop for a few days so I left it. Also - when the brick is right next to the arch you really have to knock it inside->outside, and in my case the mortar line inside the oven is pretty small. Hard to use that cold chisel without crumbling the brick.

[GianniFocaccia]

Re: Texman Build

If it's not too difficult, take out just that one adjacent brick. I used homebrew mortar, and a hand-grinder with a diamond blade made it easy to remove the mortar prior to wedging a good-sized flat screwdriver in there and twisting the offending brick loose.

Yes, I ended up cutting all four sides of each brick which meant that each one was angled, tapered, and beveled. After rounding the bottom and scalloping the top of the brick, I contoured the face both sideways and vertically.

John

[Pompeii Nate]

Re: Texman Build

Texman,

Your arch looks great! Can you give me an idea of how much you cut off of each arch brick to make them all fit like that? I want to do something exactly like yours and John's but I have not even started yet. If I remember correctly John said he just eye-balled it but he also had some Sketchup drawings which I am sure helped. So any input and advice would be great.

Thanks,
Nate

[texman]

Re: Texman Build

Nate
I drew the arch out on poster board, actual size. Used a little math.
circumference of a circle = pi x diameter. So circumference of a radius = (pi x d)/2 of half of whole circle. I wanted an 18' arch width,(radius of 9") with a total height of 11.5" (63% of dome height) In my case the arch starts 2.5" above the base of the oven, because the bottom brick is straight, no taper. So, the actual arch curve is only 11.5"-2.5"(brick thickness) = 9.0" in height for the inside of the arch. The outside of the arch is then 9" + 4.5"(brick thickness)= 13.5" radius of outside arch, or 27" diameter. So, pi x 27" / 2 = 42.42"
42.42/2.5" brick thickness = 16.97 bricks. My brick thickness is just slightly less than 2.5", usually 2.4375" to 2.375" and you have to have room for mortar joints. I wanted 1/8" mortar joints. If i used 18 bricks (even #) you don't have a keystone, so i went to 19 bricks for the arch. Don't count the bottom bricks, they are straight. the outside radius was 42.42/19 bricks=2.24" for each brick on the outside. the inner radius is (pi x 18")2=28.28" 28.28" / 19 bricks is 1.49" that is without room for any mortar. take 1/8"(mortar joint)/2 (bricks share mortar joint)= 1/16" from each measurement, so 2.24" -.0625" = 2.1775" round to 2.125" or 2 1/8" outer radius thickness. inside thickness becomes 1.43", round to 1.375" or 1 3/8"
is used an old piece of tile and made a template. took a couple of time to get the template close enough that it fit in correctly in the actual size drawing. I used the template to mark the face of the bricks and started cutting. I used Johns method to determine the cuts on the top and backs of the brick (not nearly as good as the teacher).
I cut that poster board (inside of arch) and glued it to my wooden arch template to guide the bricks as is set them. When you set them, alternate sides and check with level after each pair of arch bricks are set. You can make slight adjustments with mortar and your bricks wont be perfectly uniform. If one side is slightly ahead of the other find a brick that is a little thicker as you set and watch the template as you go. Use the wooden arch support to keep you vertical as you go.
Long story short-draw picture and cut bricks like picture.
Tracy