Wood Fired Beehive in Utah

[Kurtloup]

Re: Wood Fired Beehive in Utah

Is Thoroseal a clear product? Being cementitous, it doesn't sound like it. Know anything about Siloxane PD? I saw that sealer at a local contractor supply.

[stonecutter]

Re: Wood Fired Beehive in Utah

Kurt..no it's not. I linked the product to the page with product data.

I've used it many times, good stuff.

Prosoco makes really great sealers, but that kind (chemical) isn't good for a WFO. Flash point is 212* with that one. Always check the PDS and MSD sheets.

[Gulf]

Re: Wood Fired Beehive in Utah

Looking great Russell.
I remember the build that you are modeling your oven after. Your's is going to be epic .

[Gulf]

Re: Wood Fired Beehive in Utah

I do have a suggestion because you are in a freeze thaw area. I'm not sure how weather tight your panels will be, so it might be worth considering coating the dome with Thoroseal. It's good insurance and a good product...compatible with masonry because it's cementitious.

Appears to be similar to Drylok. I had plenty left over from my stand. I thought about using it on the outside of my stucco. But,(in my case) I wasn't sure if the brick would bond to it. I used Sikalatex as a water replacement in my stucco layers. I also painted a a coat between the layers as a bonding agent.

[mikku]

Re: Wood Fired Beehive in Utah

Hello from a little north of Laurentius in Japan.
I am looking at your photos and need a little explanation if you can take the time. It seems like you have a counter surrounding your dome..is that right?
Your copper starter shingles, kind of lay on top of the counter...is that right?
What prevents water from wicking back under these starter shingles?

I have played around a little with sheet metal and can make things---if I can imagine them...usually with just hand tools, no special brake. I think for what you are doing, the brake that you have is going to be a problem. I do not know what is available in Utah, but in this neck of the woods...the guys who do this all the time, in the diamond pattern maybe that you will be doing have brakes with removable jaws so that you can bend very small pieces, then do reverse bends--because the jaw may only be 5 inches long--but you can do this with hand tools and no special brake. If you have been playing around with the copper, you see the restrictions presented with the tool that you have.

Back to the counter top--I think if this is the case...you will have to trash the idea of a counter surrounding the oven, if you want to keep your oven water proof. Your starting flashing--we call dodai misugiri should extend to the outside of the counter bend downwards and have another bend that will direct any water away from the underlaying base. Imagine water how it flows--make a joint that water cannot wick back--under your special metal work.

Another recommendation is to buy several sheets of the cheapest sheetmetal you can find --so that you can do patterns with this metal. Make what you desire to make out of whatever crap you can find...when it fits to your satisfaction, transfer the pattern to your copper and make the part. I really feel for you when you are using a very expensive cladding material...It is not tolerant to a second bending!

Another tip, from a stupid carpenter--you do not need to make your segments of your dome the same size! They can be random--your polar to equator lines can be any spacing that you want, try to stay away from very narrow lines because it makes fabricating the diamond very difficult! I do not know the weight of copper that you are using. Here they use .035mm as standard, and maybe a little thicker occasionally. The thicker it is, the more expense and the more difficult to bend...I hope you do not have a whole bunch of thick stuff that is difficult bending! Too thick and the bend shows tension break marks--thin is good! Looks the same when finished! Beautiful patina once it ages--keep it out of the acid rain and it will last a very long time! Toxic air and precipitation makes copper roofs in my neighborhood a treat for the wealthy! The rest of us poor folk gotta use galvalume--color coated--multiple electroplated steel roofing products!

My friend Shindo--advises me on how to do sheetmetal properly (here called bankin)--He is approaching 60 rapidly but has been fabricating since his early teens...

What you are doing---is what a good sheetmetal guy would do to show off his craftsmanship----Take it slow and the results will be spectacular! Been watching your build with enthusiasm for a long time..

I'd rethink your starting metal to prevent water from wicking back..my bit of advise for Sunday July 7, 2013 in Japan!

Good luck and keep the pictures coming! Gary

[UtahBeehiver]

Re: Wood Fired Beehive in Utah

Mikku,

Yes I have been concerned about wicking under my first starter shingle without having to cover my polished concrete counter. I was going to place a waxy mastic barrier between the dome and the first starter shingle. It is material that we use in my industry to water proof valves in underground vaults. It stays pliable yet water proof at the same time. Ideally I should carry the copper to the edge and make a rain lip.

I do have two hand bending tools with different size jaws, 4",6" 10" and 12" plus the brake which handles 48" but no adjustable jaws and have access to a finger brake for those special bends.

Like the idea of cheap sheet metal for patterns. Yes the copper is expensive, $3.50 sq ft. It is 16oz copper which is roofing weight copper. Wish I had access to your bankin.

Thanks for your input.

[mikku]

Re: Wood Fired Beehive in Utah

You are welcome!
I have hand tools for sheetmetal with bending jaws starting at 30mm width and going up to 100, also in the mix of Japanese tools, Have some of the tools used in fabricating ducting for heating/AC in USA..
Don't know 16oz to mm thickness so I'll take your word for it!
You do have access to bankin--I see Mr. Shindo very often--got a question, I'll ask him! He is a bicycle hobbiest. His new Toyota van has huge graphics---CANNONDALE covering his delivery truck--maybe 50 grand for a onebox new!

I'll ask him anything you want! He likes USA jeans--Eddie Bauer Classic Fit--so I order them for him ---then stop and bullshit with him about his craft. Great guy! Gave me an antique soba bowl last week! Will work great when I mix up dough in larger quantities!

As far as mastics go--in principal the product may work fine. If you want to maintain a dry oven floor and under floor insulation... Do not rely on anything except gravity to keep your build dry--Gravity is a constant--all other things loose their characteristics over time. hate to see you caulking up the perimeter of the oven trying to find out where the water is entering! Also, your counter itself is pourous--water can enter and wick through your counter.. Maybe.

Maybe I am talking thru my butt? don't know--no days off for a long time and busy seems to be the normal for this year! Great if you want to feel tired all the time! Cheers Russell! Love your project!

[UtahBeehiver]

Re: Wood Fired Beehive in Utah

Mikku,

What you think, my 2" or abt a short cm first floor layer of insulation was FoamGlas which is a close cell expanded glass insulation which does not absorb water that might migrated from wicking of the copper then 1.5" of CaSi on top of the Foamglas. Does not solve the water issue but it should not affect the floor insulation. Nice resource to have an old master to consult with. Thanks for the offer to consult with him. Maybe you could ask him what he would do in my case if I wanted to try and keep my polished concrete counters exposed. 16 oz copper in the US is thinner than what you are seeing in Japan, it is about 22mils.

[UtahBeehiver]

Re: Wood Fired Beehive in Utah

I am building a new weld fabrication facility at my work so I decided to go over to the site this morning and dumpster dive. I grabbed a piece of scrap sheet metal that was in the dumpster and going to work on my copper bending and fab skills before I go any farther with the copper as suggested by Mikku and Stonecutter. For those who are new to the FB site, I am copying copper cladding that was done by Larry out of Chicago who did a bang up job with his copper cladding.

[deejayoh]

Re: Wood Fired Beehive in Utah

Hey Russell -
Looks good! Just an idea on the wicking - maybe you could pour a concrete ring on top of your counters/around the oven that would elevate the base of your roof above the counters? Make it 2" x 3" and then you have something to run a rain edge to w/o having to go all the way to the counter edge. Use zypex additive in the concrete so it won't wick back water from the counter.

[deejayoh]

Re: Wood Fired Beehive in Utah

I didn't exactly have that that thought through, but I think you could seal that seam a bit more easily than trying to seal a flat joint with your countertop. Grind the concrete down a bit and apply some bonding agent. Round the joint so the water flows away. I think your countertop is sloped away in any case, isn't it?


Foot is doing much better. Thx for asking. I can't do much in the way of athletics, but I'm getting around pretty well.

[stonecutter]

Re: Wood Fired Beehive in Utah

Appears to be similar to Drylok. I had plenty left over from my stand. I thought about using it on the outside of my stucco. But,(in my case) I wasn't sure if the brick would bond to it. I used Sikalatex as a water replacement in my stucco layers. I also painted a a coat between the layers as a bonding agent.

Thoroseal is cement based and Drylok is latex. I have used Drylok before too, on foundation walls. Good product too. I don't think I would trust it on warm surfaces being latex though.

[stonecutter]

Re: Wood Fired Beehive in Utah

Russ, if you don't have them, I recommend getting hand seamers..3 & 6 inch. They allow you to tighten up your bends when they intersect, and make adjustments better than a small hand brake. I have an apprenticeship in HVAC, but most of what we did was sheetmetal fabrication..those little tools were very useful to me.

I didn't check the old posts, but I think I recommended practicing on aluminum coil stock, because it's easier to bend for practice pieces.

As for your countertop, any good quality penetrating sealer plus a couple coats of wax should do the trick.

[UtahBeehiver]

Re: Wood Fired Beehive in Utah

Stonecutter,

I do have a hand seamer with different width of jaws so I am good there. I will practice on some cheaper metals before I go much farther. Going to look for Thoroseal or equal tomorrow.

[stonecutter]

Re: Wood Fired Beehive in Utah

That's good. Looking forward to seeing the work.