Pizza History in the Hammer Continues

[Chach]

This is what I'm talking about. The brick below is in a straight line with the brick above they should be angling.

Ricky

[Baza]

Chach Thanks for the feedback! And not a fan of the caster wheel either - too much adjustment to use it. But it works for folks and that's what's important.

I went back to take a look at things and will re-consider with your insight - I don't think it was touching - but I'll have a look for sure!

I went back to my form for the oven floor - and used it as the hemisphere for laying the dome brick out (as per the original FB plans and others who did same).
I noticed (as in the pictures below) that when I did this - as per my post #52 above - that eventually, the courses "catch up" around the 6th round.

I first laid out 1/2 brick courses from floor to dome top (perfect hemisphere to keep it simple), then noted that it was a lovely smooth inner surface with about 3/8" gaps at the back.
Then I put the angled soldier brick on top and, lo! There was the 3/8" gap difference between the hemispherical course underneath it!! I continued the angled-soldier courses and there it was, by course 6 they were the same and the gap closed (all this WITHOUT the IT!).

SO - I'm still going to try what Ricky was suggesting - certainly worth a look. If I can't figure it out - I'm going to TLR it (That Looks Right) as a previous builder did who's oven turned out fine!
Since it creates a wider bottom (isn't that close to a Queen song!?) it buy more inside real estate for pots and the like given the height this achieves and eventually curves over to meet the rest of the courses higher up. I'm starting to think it's not that much of a problem ...

... or is it?

Have a look at the pics - you'll see what I mean (not that anyone here needs any convincing from the like of me!)

Thanks again Forno Friends!
Barry

[Chach]

Hey there Forno Friends (and welcome to our new moderators! ... I'm going to need your help here!)

MY IT TOOL
After much hand-wringing and an abundance of support from this forum - I made my IT tool ... riffing off masters here - no welds (couldn't) and came up with what is in pics on this post.

• TOOL:
  • piece of lumber for stem with hold drilled one end to match pin in u-bolt (u-bolt is actually piece from a marine turnbuckle - do you think I could find a simple u-bolt with stem here in Canada - ugh!) ... sawed it down to height.
  • drew a midpoint the length of the lumber stem then measured from middle of pin exactly 21" along that midpoint.
  • Cut piece and measured up 1 and 1/4" from midpoint of stem to put a second piece of wood so that the mid-point of the stem met the mid-point of the brick - made an L-shape
  • extra wood on top - call it the lip - is long enough to put a hole for a pencil to help mark the outside of the dome when I have to mark the arch bricks to do the angle cuts there.
  • added two pieces of 1/2" ply to the sides to provide more of a stable face to lean the brick against.
• MOUNT/PLACEMENT:
  • 1/2" ply drilled exact size as a piece of stiff PVC, hammered in to ply - sturdy sleeve to put the u-bolt stem in (slight movement - but not much)
  • PVC opening placed directly above dead centre and stabilized in place with ply all around - cut brick-sized.
  • Have to place pivot point at floor level - so had to go lower than brick with the mount. Height of u-bolt cut to make sure the pin/pivot point is at floor level.
  • took out bricks around the mount so stem could lower enough to do the first few courses - cut brick-sized 1/2" ply to stabilize the mount all around (will put back when higher courses are complete).

I added this description above (and accompanying pictures) for any new builder who gets as angst-ridden as me about making one without welding and such.
I hope it helps!
(time will tell if it works! HA!)

Best
Barry

Nice job...I'm a big fan of the fork bolt rather than the offset caster wheel.

Ricky

[Chach]

I think your IT is taller than the brick your setting and is touching the brick below it. That should not happen. The brick should be at the angle of the IT not the IT and the brick below. The IT will dictate the angle and your going to position the brick wherever the IT sets it as this is it's true place but the IT should not be touching the brick below the one your setting it is at a different angle from the one your setting above. The dome looks like its a straight angle instead of curving.

Ricky

[Baza]

Trying to work through it - wondering if I don't just "soldier" on ...

Picture 1: Soldier

• shows what I have - the soldier (5" inward face and angled cut on top).
• I stacked 4 courses of brick with wedges to 'see what happens' - does 3/8" gap with IT tool disappear?
• Found that at the 4th course - the gap disappears (see pic). Brick is flush with face of IT AND at the angle of the IT
• It "corrected itself"

Picture 2: NO Soldier - 1/2 brick

• first 1/2 brick (at floor level) meets IT
• second course 1/2 brick (first above floor level - with wedge) flush with first brick face, meets IT
• Third course 1/2 brick flush with second brick face, meets IT

So - with the same IT - two results that suggest the IT is fine - but the difference in how one lays out their courses initially poses initial alignment problems (off-sets).
I see why some go with the 1/2 brick to start instead of the taller soldier if it creates this kind of discrepancy. (or it might just be me)

I think I may "soldier" on - cut a new one with a steeper angle to avoid the need to raise the back on the first course above the soldier and then carry on as it appears the angle "corrects itself".

or is there a different school of thought? Suggestions?

... I'm going for a run now - I need to clear my head ...

Thanks everyone!
Barry

[Baza]

HOUSTON - WE HAVE A PROBLEM!!!

SO - after all the enjoyment of cutting a floor that lines up, laying it level with no sand/fireclay and constructing an IT tool that worked to confirm my original measurements ... everything went to crap after that.

In the pics you will see that I am doing a soldier course. I measured up 5" and made an angle cut there based on the angle of the IT tool laid against it at that point (it was here I noticed something out of sorts).
The height of this soldier is, essentially, 2 courses-ish.

PROBLEM presented itself when I brought the IT tool up to the soldier - I noticed that, though the face of the tool is exact with the outside diameter of the inner circle (inside oven, 21") when I pulled it up, there was a 3/8" gap between the face of the tool and the soldier!!!!!

I cut it anyway (see Pictures) and thought I'd test it by laying an off cut (#1) in the tool against the soldier's angle (#2) and see if there was much of a difference - YEP!!!! 3/8" gap between the face of the tool and the flush face of the soldier and first 1/2 brick!!!?? (yellow exclamation point).
I honestly don't know what the hell happened!!??

The floor was cut 21" from centre all around
The soldiers are laid up against this floor with a 1/8" cardboard expansion joint (negligible difference - I took it out to see if that was the problem - nope).

QUESTION - do I now have an oven that is 21 3/8' radius that I have to adjust inwards on each course going up to make it 20" at the top?
Or is there something I can do now to fix this - or at least have it explained to help me understand why/what happened!?

All building has stopped until I figure this out!

Gutted in Hamilton
Barry

[Baza]

Ok - then, after IT tool made - re-checked template I cut out in light board and all matched up - 21" from centre all around!
WOO!

Then - used the board (and IT tool to double-check) and drew circle around laid brick to mark cuts.
Swallowed my slight apprehension around the wet saw - and started cutting - went really well!!

Laid the cut bricks in place - re-checked for accuracy (wood template and tool) - pretty darn good!
Was very happy with the day!

NOTICED - my floor is REALLY level and everything is sitting lovely! HOWEVER, there are slight variances in the brick that have lifts of about 1/32" - when I swipe my metal ruler (like a peel) around - it ticks along these little variances. They are so slight that I'm not pulling up the floor to lay it in sand/fireclay but will elect to sand these slight rises down instead - I don't want to mess with how level it is.

[Baza]

Hey there Forno Friends (and welcome to our new moderators! ... I'm going to need your help here!)

MY IT TOOL
After much hand-wringing and an abundance of support from this forum - I made my IT tool ... riffing off masters here - no welds (couldn't) and came up with what is in pics on this post.

• TOOL:
  • piece of lumber for stem with hold drilled one end to match pin in u-bolt (u-bolt is actually piece from a marine turnbuckle - do you think I could find a simple u-bolt with stem here in Canada - ugh!) ... sawed it down to height.
  • drew a midpoint the length of the lumber stem then measured from middle of pin exactly 21" along that midpoint.
  • Cut piece and measured up 1 and 1/4" from midpoint of stem to put a second piece of wood so that the mid-point of the stem met the mid-point of the brick - made an L-shape
  • extra wood on top - call it the lip - is long enough to put a hole for a pencil to help mark the outside of the dome when I have to mark the arch bricks to do the angle cuts there.
  • added two pieces of 1/2" ply to the sides to provide more of a stable face to lean the brick against.
• MOUNT/PLACEMENT:
  • 1/2" ply drilled exact size as a piece of stiff PVC, hammered in to ply - sturdy sleeve to put the u-bolt stem in (slight movement - but not much)
  • PVC opening placed directly above dead centre and stabilized in place with ply all around - cut brick-sized.
  • Have to place pivot point at floor level - so had to go lower than brick with the mount. Height of u-bolt cut to make sure the pin/pivot point is at floor level.
  • took out bricks around the mount so stem could lower enough to do the first few courses - cut brick-sized 1/2" ply to stabilize the mount all around (will put back when higher courses are complete).

I added this description above (and accompanying pictures) for any new builder who gets as angst-ridden as me about making one without welding and such.
I hope it helps!
(time will tell if it works! HA!)

Best
Barry

[Baza]

UtahBeehiver thank you! Yes - saw the same and inquired - they are selling 50lb bags for $125 each. I need just a bit for levelling. (Sigh).
I’ll look again to see if anyone will sell a small batch - but coming up thin there.
thanks for the caution on cuttings - perhaps if I screen sift it - it may work ...

... and off to cut out the floor! (Gulp!)
barry

[UtahBeehiver]

Have you tried pottery supply stores, a quick google on my end show quite a number in the Ontario area. You want powdered clay. Yes you can use sand only for leveling, fire clay helps with the consistency. Cuttings from wet saw has been used in homebrew but we get varied feedback on it, one being a little more difficult to use the homebrew,

[Baza]

Hello Forno Friends!

The cutting is going well - so far - layouts are looking good!

QUESTION: I'm having a devil of a time sourcing fireclay powder. I want to take out some very small rises in the brick (inconsistencies as the floor is sitting very level - woohoo!). Can I just use fine sand to level the floor brick - do I HAVE to use Fireclay sand in the 50/50 mix I see on this forum? (I know I have sand from cutting but it is in the wetsaw basin as mud! No time to wait for it to all dry out!).

So, is fine sand alone ok as a levelling agent or do I HAVE to put the fireclay sand in too?

Thanks for any help!
Barry

[Baza]

Oh - when laying out the floor - and knowing I'm putting in a heat break - should I account for that now?
Or - should I focus not the floor/arch cuts and, when doing the outer vent area - worry about that then ...?

I may have just answered my own question ...

[Baza]

Hello Forno Friends!

Thank you so much JR and Mongo for your support, help and plain-talk insight. You have REALLY helped me.
As a result of this tutelage - I went back to my template - re-drew the arch to represent a 4.5" thick profile and adjusted my vent opening accordingly
JRPizza - it was REALLY helpful to know the measurements of your Vent floor distance! It helped me judge whether mine was in the ballpark (you made your adjustments according to Gulf's support).

I found my vent landing about half an inch shorter than yours (13" on mine) and given you said you had plenty of room at that layout for the chimney et al - I think the 1/2 inch won't make a difference to the design for the chimney flue (8" plate dimensions call for a 12" flange for the opening - this should work find ... particularly using Mongo's formed-brick design to do it!).

So the pics below show the outcome of that paralysis-solving support from you all.
HEAPS of THANKS my friends!
Barry
PS - today - laying the floor outline, drawing the floor and hopefully cutting the brick (if the weather improves! )

[JRPizza]

Barry, there are two dimensions you need to work with. The outer face of the inner arch is set so that the dome and arch will intersect without having the need for the dome to go out of round and to avoid having the arch too far into the oven eating up floor space. Lots of posts on this but essentially you place a TDC brick on your arch form and make sure it will intersect the dome like the pic below. then the outboard face of the arch form sets the arch location. I also have cad drawings of this on my build thread. The second dimension is the distance from the outboard face of the inner arch to the outside face of the outer vent arch. I took Gulf 's advice and made my distance 1.5 bricks (13.5"). This gave me plenty of room/area for my 8" pipe and did not make my vent too deep so I could still work the oven well. If you don't do cad the paper layout is certainly the way to go. I actually did my cad layout then verified it with a big piece of cardboard just to check.

[Baza]

Mongo!
Always coming through! Your explanations are so clear! You should write an updated set of plans for these builds! I totally get the “why” of your decisions - which are key to making more independent decisions about one’s own build going forward (what is/isn’t going to work aesthetically or structurally)

THANK YOU!!
I have re-drawn my arch to be 4.5” thick because now it makes sense WHY and looking at your outer arch thickness it makes me comfortable as I was worried the thicker inner arch would leave too thin an outer arch. My measurements from a 4.5” inner arch thickness left roughly what your outer arch build looks like and that was a phew-moment!

plenty of room for the vent and chimney plate.
mall making sense.
cutting the floor plan and insulation today and get out of my paralysis!

THANK YOU AGAIN
Barry