Starting new 36" build

[david s]

Re: Starting new 36" build

I recently ordered some "foaming agent" to create foam concrete and have plans to use it to produce a Hebel like product as well as experimenting with it in conjunction with calcium aluminate cement and clay slip, which I hope to use to create fired castings for another project. I eagerly await it's delivery. Normal detergent for this application does not work because apart from not knowing its compatability with Portland cement it deflates too quickly resulting in failure. The product designed specifically for the purpose has been tested for both performance and compatibility so that's what I'll be using. Many of these products may seem to be the same, but they actually vary considerably in composition and performance. When I get it I'll post the chemical name, but it's likely to be a very long one.

[wotavidone]

Re: Starting new 36" build

P.S. right now my wife has Palmolive dishwashing detergent in the cupboard - the label says it is a micture of anionic and non-ionic surfactants. Non ionic surfactants often are glycosides. i.e the molecule contains a sugar.
I'd think twice about using it as a plasticiser.

[wotavidone]

Re: Starting new 36" build

Plasticisers are typically lignosulphonates.
Anionic dishwashing detergents are typically alkylbenzenesulphonates.
The basic unit of a lignosulphonate is really quite similar to an alkylbenzenesuklphonate.
The big difference is that the lignosulphonate is polymerised - lots of the basic units joined together to form long chain polymers.
I think the lignosulphonate plasticiser would work better than detergent.
However I think that the most important bit is the sulphonate functional group, and I therefore think detergent will work adequately.
Look for an unscented, untinted detergent that doesn't contain phosphates (lots of these on the Oz market since we started worrying about water security and re-using grey water) and has "anionic surfactants" as the main ingredient.
The only thing I'm not confident about is the amount. I suggest the minimum that does the job.

[brickie in oz]

Re: Starting new 36" build

So still no scientific evidence? Just some bloke said 30 years ago?

[david s]

Re: Starting new 36" build

Thirty years ago I built a house and added another room every holidays. I did a short bricklaying course and the bloke running it suggested adding a squirt of dish washing liquid to the mortar mix to help make it more "sticky". I stuck by this regime and found it did the job. The last room I added and as I was busy doing other stuff, I got a professional bricklayer to do the job. He advised me against using dish washing liquid as he had been taught in his apprenticeship that only the proprietary product, designed specifically for the purpose, should be used. As I previously stated I'm no applied chemist so I take the advice of those who've developed the specific product. It's not that expensive and it's better to be safe than sorry in my book.

[brickie in oz]

Re: Starting new 36" build

Be wary of using dish washing liquid, which has been designed to wash dishes. Although it works it probably contains phosphates and other chemicals which may have adverse effects on the concrete product either short or long term.

I'm not an industrial chemist, but if you check the chemicals these products contain and you usually have to research their data sheets, you find that the chemicals vary considerably and all have ridiculously complex names. So I defer to those applied chemical engineers and trust that the product they've designed for the application is suitable.
If there are any applied chemists on the forum, maybe they might chime in.

So you dont know if it is unsuitable, so why suggest it is?

[david s]

Re: Starting new 36" build

Ive asked everyone who quotes this to provide the written scientific evidence, after 30 years Ive never seen it?

Hear say wont do.

I'm not an industrial chemist, but if you check the chemicals these products contain and you usually have to research their data sheets, you find that the chemicals vary considerably and all have ridiculously complex names. So I defer to those applied chemical engineers and trust that the product they've designed for the application is suitable.
If there are any applied chemists on the forum, maybe they might chime in.

[brickie in oz]

Re: Starting new 36" build

Be wary of using dish washing liquid, which has been designed to wash dishes. Although it works it probably contains phosphates and other chemicals which may have adverse effects on the concrete product either short or long term.

Ive asked everyone who quotes this to provide the written scientific evidence, after 30 years Ive never seen it?

Hear say wont do.

[david s]

Re: Starting new 36" build

Super-plasticiser allows you to add the correct amount of water to the mix. Typically a ratio of around 0.5 of water to cement by weight is about right. If you mix it up you end up with a brew that seems too dry and won't flow. Adding water to achieve this results in a weaker product. Adding some super plasticiser thins the mix out and makes it flow. Too much however creates separation (heavy aggregate falling to the bottom). There are many specific chemicals to achieve this characteristic and the products have been designed accordingly. Be wary of using dish washing liquid, which has been designed to wash dishes. Although it works it probably contains phosphates and other chemicals which may have adverse effects on the concrete product either short or long term.

[brickie in oz]

Re: Starting new 36" build

Maybe someone else can shine some light on the fortifier/plasticizer subject.

Its just use dish washing detergent, it breaks the surface tension so all sand/cement/gravel particles are evenly coated in water, you use less water per mix, I used it for years.

[Gulf]

Re: Starting new 36" build

Did you get your plasticizer from Ace?
Edit: Reread post. I think that you meant that the concrete that you poured without the plasticizer was easier to work?

[UtahBeehiver]

Re: Starting new 36" build

Gulf,

I used super plastizer in my pour, roughly 100 grams per 2- 60 lb batch of concret. To be honest, the 1/2 bag I had to run to ACE because I was short was easier to work and finish. But that could be user error.

[UtahBeehiver]

Re: Starting new 36" build

DeeJ,

The lithium food safe sealer is at the same place the pigment color calculator is located at (directcolors). We get in trouble by putting direct links if you know what I mean. Just go to directcolors site and look under sealant. 1 quart $31 bucks incl shipping good for upt to 450 sq ft. BTW, nice pours and hard trowel..........!@!# i am still polishing but time to fill in bug eyes with a slurry before I go farther.

[Gulf]

Re: Starting new 36" build

Thanks for the info DeeJ,
The concistency in the Buddy Rhodes video is sort of what I want to achieve. I'm not looking for the fluid type shown in the Concrete Institute vid. but, maybe somewhere in between .

[deejayoh]

Re: Starting new 36" build

Interesting. I used QC specialty countertop mix, which has the plasticizer in it. I used a barrel-type mixer. At the recommended water ratio, the mix looked like his first example. After adding 25-50% more water - the mix was more like what you see in the Buddy Rhodes video that is also on Youtube. Dense, but workable. It did not "form itself" as he shows.