2024 Neapolitan oven build

[daidensacha]

The Christmas Markets is on my A list to see sometime, especially Regensburg.

I‘m curious what draws you to Regensburg?

That’s a bit under 2 hours from us. Nuremberg supposedly has really nice Xmas markets (on my bucket list), which is not far from Regensburg. Keep that in mind if your ever in the neighbourhood. Thierhaupten, where I live wins the vote for the best local Xmas markets, although its more social than anything, as a life time of people who ever lived in Thierhaupten always come to catch up at the Xmas market.

My favorite is Salzburg, also just a couple of hours away. I always have such a good time there. The ambience of Salzburg with the old buildings is so beautiful.

[david s]

Just a quick caution on a blow pipe. In my rush to use one for my first pizza party, I fashioned one of proper length and went at it. I worked from the front to back while sliding the tip of the tube side to side. While I made sure to not have any floor bricks stand proud such that a peel would catch when sliding front to back, there are still joints. The pipe snagged one of those joints and I'm still not sure how I didn't crack a tooth! Now I have a 2" piece of rubber hose snugged on the end as a cushion.

Yes, I have one of those rubber chair leg tips fitted to the pipe, with a hole drilled through its centre, for exactly the same reason.
Apart from clearing away the ash, the blowpipe also works really well to give the fire on the side a blast if the flame dies or some assistance if you have trouble starting the fire. It’s an essential tool in my view.

[UtahBeehiver]

The Christmas Markets is on my A list to see sometime, especially Regensburg.

[Giovanni Rossi]

Just a length of thin stainless pipe about 1I 0mm diameter, Mine is only about 500mm long, but my oven is small a larger oven would need a longer pipe. I made it from a disused drying rack. Just make sure you blow, don't suck.

Just a quick caution on a blow pipe. In my rush to use one for my first pizza party, I fashioned one of proper length and went at it. I worked from the front to back while sliding the tip of the tube side to side. While I made sure to not have any floor bricks stand proud such that a peel would catch when sliding front to back, there are still joints. The pipe snagged one of those joints and I'm still not sure how I didn't crack a tooth! Now I have a 2" piece of rubber hose snugged on the end as a cushion.

[daidensacha]

Baking dishes…

Yesterday I put an enamel baking dish in the oven that was 300C with some ribs, and it held up well, and was relatively easy to clean, but I‘ve been looking at options to have dedicated baking dishes specifically for the wood oven.

Cast Iron
Cast iron was my initial thought. I do have a big pot and lid, which is brilliant and will be used in there at some point. Also some cast iron fry pans that will also be useful. But its heavy, and I was wondering it there is something else.

Carbon Steel
I got my self a 40 x 30cm carbon steel baking dish, which I think will be handy, and and comes in bigger sizes too, 50x35cm, 60x40cm. I‘ve also been considering at some point getting a 40cm carbon steel frypan with two loop handles.

Hotel pans…
This morning I was googling and came across a webpage of a woodfired oven company which I found very informative. They mentioned hotel pans as a really good option, giving pros and cons of the various possibilities. Steel, easy to clean, dishwasher proof, heat resistant, come in various sizes, and are very affordable. or example, 6 pieces 33 x 53.7 x 9cm for 60 Euro. Says food can be heated up to 932C in them.
For the family Xmas dinner this year I will do 2 ducks, and have been considering what is the best option to use for baking dishes. Also after cooking ribs yesterday in my oven baking dish, I need something better.

Anyone used them in the forno bravo ovens?

[david s]

Just a length of thin stainless pipe about 10mm diameter, Mine is only about 500mm long, but my oven is small a larger oven would need a longer pipe. I made it from a disused drying rack. Just make sure you blow, don't suck.

[daidensacha]

The transfer of heat by conduction through either the dome or floor bricks is dependant on their thermal conductivity. Rushing the heat up does not alter the speed of this heat travel much and can be damaging to the refractory or bricks, creating micro cracking (not visible). Far kinder to allow the oven to take up the heat at its own rate.High duty bricks will be denser and therefore more thermally conductive than low duty bricks. most builders go for the medium duty bricks for this reason, as well as the high duty bricks being really hard to cut and therefore killing diamond blades at a faster rate. All ovens will have a floor that's too hot for the first pizza. I prefer to use a blowpipe to clean the floor rather than a wet mop which creates a mess and pulls too much valuable heat out of the floor. I find in my oven that to cook the first one half in the inner chamber and half in the entry, turning frequently, works pretty well. Subsequent pizzas can be pushed further in as the sting is taken out of the floor. It is considered desirable for the piza bottom to be just a little burnt. This is called "leoparding", where there will be some small black dots on the bottom like a leopard's spots. This imparts some slight bitterness to the crust as well as ensuring a crunchy base.

A fire maintained on the side is mandatory to maintain dome heat. As you've found, preheating small pieces of wood in the entry helps them ignite almost immeduately when placed on the fire on the side. It also provides a perfectly adequate oven light.

I really appreciate your depth of experience.

When I had fires going every day for a week to dry out the dome, I wasn‘t focussed on heating the bricks, just feeding the fire and the heat built organically as the thermal mass absorbed heat. For my first pizza bakes it was the same, had a small fire going thought the day which I fed a few smaller logs at a time, was about 5 hours, created a lot of hot coals, and used not a lot of wood surprisingly. The oven was pumping hot that night, overly so.

My second bake, I purposely decreased my preheat time to see how it would go and what was possible, but I was overly focussed on feeding the fire logs to get it hot faster. It wasn‘t working, and I will learn, but it seems much wiser to find that balance where I‘m feeding the fire without trying to push it, and allow the thermal mass to take in the heat in its own time. It does work really well, as proven with the first bake, but I will keep refining my method to improve the heating process.

I hadn‘t heard of using air to clean the floor, but i‘m curious what you use to blow air through the blowpipe? Just lung power, or something with more volume like a compressor?

My pizza this last bake had perfect leoparding on the bases, but this time around it was the opposite to the first, and I didn‘t find that medium where the tops cooked equally as fast as the bottoms. First time round the bottoms cooked faster than the tops, this last time the tops cooked faster than the bottoms. So I was making use of the hotter heat zones to finish. of the pizza bottoms. Wet rag did bring the heat down a little too much, but it was clean. I will investigate the blowpipe method.

[daidensacha]

I'm still learning myself and what I have found is to make sure you do not have any loose flour on the bottom of the pizza. A perforated pizza peel helps with this. Also, I try to keep the floor temp around 385 (725 F) to limit the overcooked bottom. I lower the floor temp with a damp towel on my long handle brush. Use it a few times to clean the ash, rinse it off in between, and then launch when the temp comes back up to where you want it.

I did 10 pizzas on Saturday and had 2 in at a time. Back of the oven was hotter and cooked better. The front was where I cooked the over topped pizzas slower

I make my dough with sourdough starter (wild yeast). Mix it up the day before, rest at room temp (19 C) for 4 to 6 hours, make dough balls and rest overnight in fridge (3 C), then take out for final proof on counter at room temp for 4 to 6 hours. Looking to try the biga and poolish method at some point.

I‘ve been putting the balls in a bowl of semolina, turning the balls over in the bowl before putting them on the bench to kneed them out. I like it more, doesn‘t burn like flour, and the pizzas go on and off the pizza peel easily with it.

I was full into baking sourdough bread for 3 years, and used semolina was my choice for making loaves easy to put in my oven. I do have a perforated peel, and it works, but I‘m also now just dusting off the dough to remove loose semolina before putting toppings, and I just put a small amount on the front of the pizza peel before sliding it under the pizza. I converted to biga after coming across a recipe for a no kneed biga bread which I adapted to make wholemeal loaves, and it is my favourite now. I love the crust and base that the biga gives for the pizza.

I also used a wet rag around the pizza turner (for want of a better word) to clean the floor after moving the coals and fire to the side of the oven. What you describe is exactly how my oven was too. Back was hotter, and I put the pizzas in the front where it was cooler, so I could let them bake longer before moving them to the back to finish off the bottoms.

I‘ve only had to pizza bakes so far. I‘m enjoying the learning, and it is a process of experience, because the oven is beyond what I could have imagined. I have underestimated the power of the heat in it, and am starting to reset my concepts. It’s really impressive how hot it gets, and how well it cooks.

Yesterday I made the mistake of putting some ribs in the oven, at 300C a day after cooking pizza. 50 minutes later they were ok, very tasty, but over cooked. I will wait 2 days after cooking pizza in future before putting meat in the oven.

[david s]

The transfer of heat by conduction through either the dome or floor bricks is dependant on their thermal conductivity. Rushing the heat up does not alter the speed of this heat travel much and can be damaging to the refractory or bricks, creating micro cracking (not visible). Far kinder to allow the oven to take up the heat at its own rate.High duty bricks will be denser and therefore more thermally conductive than low duty bricks. most builders go for the medium duty bricks for this reason, as well as the high duty bricks being really hard to cut and therefore killing diamond blades at a faster rate. All ovens will have a floor that's too hot for the first pizza. I prefer to use a blowpipe to clean the floor rather than a wet mop which creates a mess and pulls too much valuable heat out of the floor. I find in my oven that to cook the first one half in the inner chamber and half in the entry, turning frequently, works pretty well. Subsequent pizzas can be pushed further in as the sting is taken out of the floor. It is considered desirable for the piza bottom to be just a little burnt. This is called "leoparding", where there will be some small black dots on the bottom like a leopard's spots. This imparts some slight bitterness to the crust as well as ensuring a crunchy base.

A fire maintained on the side is mandatory to maintain dome heat. As you've found, preheating small pieces of wood in the entry helps them ignite almost immeduately when placed on the fire on the side. It also provides a perfectly adequate oven light.

[AJH]

I'm still learning myself and what I have found is to make sure you do not have any loose flour on the bottom of the pizza. A perforated pizza peel helps with this. Also, I try to keep the floor temp around 385 (725 F) to limit the overcooked bottom. I lower the floor temp with a damp towel on my long handle brush. Use it a few times to clean the ash, rinse it off in between, and then launch when the temp comes back up to where you want it.

I did 10 pizzas on Saturday and had 2 in at a time. Back of the oven was hotter and cooked better. The front was where I cooked the over topped pizzas slower

I make my dough with sourdough starter (wild yeast). Mix it up the day before, rest at room temp (19 C) for 4 to 6 hours, make dough balls and rest overnight in fridge (3 C), then take out for final proof on counter at room temp for 4 to 6 hours. Looking to try the biga and poolish method at some point.

[daidensacha]

Pizza improving

Yesterday was the opening day of our Weihnachtsmarkt (Christmas market), quite a big yearly event of the village social calendar. Glühwein, bratwurst, and fires to stand around as it’s usually cold. Yesterday was -3C max temp, just cold without snow.

My wife wants to celebrate her birthday on 23 December with pizza and glühwein, so after my disappointing first attempt at baking pizza last week, I am planning on twice weekly bakes to gain experience and fast track my learning so I can serve decent pizza on the 23rd.

Yesterday was my second bake. I made some changes, to the dough, the heating of the oven, and the baking of the pizza.

The Dough - 100% Biga 70% Hydration
I made up a spreadsheet to formulate recipes for biga dough, and yesterday it was a 100% 24 hour preferment Biga, with the final dough being 70% hydration, with 6 hours second rise after balling. The dough was perfect, very light and soft, and alive, easy to form into pizzas and not sticky. Rose beautifully in the oven, and tasted super.

Heating the oven
I purposely started my fire later, with a goal to see how it would go to try an heat the oven in 2 hours. I started it about 30 mins earlier than planned, slowly building it to build up the base of hot coals. I loaded it up, put the insulated door on the opening, one side open enough allowing an inflow of air to feed the fire. That was so I could go to the Weihnachtsmarkt for an hour or so. I was gone for a bit oven an hour and wood burnt down nicely, with the oven close to my goal heat. I wanted the dome at 500C, with the floor at 430C. Dome was indeed 500C, but the floor was around 400C, little less than I wanted. But it worked. Unlike my first attempt when the pizzas burnt inside 30 seconds, this time I could allow them to sit on the floor while the dough rose and baked, turning them to get an even bake around the crust. Some i lift up closer to the dome to finish off the tops.

WIth the temp at -3C, I was preheating the wood before putting it on the fire, as the initial pieces took time to warm up and then burn.

The Pizza
Mozzarella, or mozzarella? I bought a couple of different types of mozzarella for the pizza. I never considered there are different types of mozzarella for different applications, but seems there are.

• 1kg roll of mozzarella that I cut into pieces, tasted ok, but didn‘t melt as I anticipated. I think it is more suited to slicing and making bruschetta with tomato etc. I wouldn‘t buy it again to use on my pizza.
• 2 kg bag of what I think is mozzarella especially for pizza. It’s grated, but in approx 5mm thick sticks, and melts beautifully, very stringy, and tastes really good. It was bubbling on the pizza after about 45-60 seconds, unlike the other that didn‘t bubble like this one.

With the cooler floor the pizza bottoms were nicely baked, not burnt. This time with my new pizza peel with 1.5 meter handle, I could easily lift the pizzas up to the top of the dome so I could control the cooking a bit more depending on the oven heat.

Limiting my toppings each bake, yesterday tomato, salami with mozzarella and olives was my wife’s choice. I wanted to try something new, so cooked up a drying bolognese in the morning. Then used thickened cream on the base, followed by bolognese, and mozzarella with some basil. I called in my lasagna pizza, and with -3C it hit the spot.

My pizza dough
For a 32 hour pizza dough, I was really impressed. I wanted 100% biga with the temp being -3C. After mixing the pre-ferment I rested it for 6 hours at 20C in the kitchen, before refrigerating it overnight at 6C. Then 2 hours back at 20C before mixing in salt and additional water to bring the hydration to 70%. 2 hours rest at 20C before balling, and then 6 hours rising at 20C before moving out to the oven for baking. There it was -3C, but the dough stayed soft and pliant. Baked beautifully, lots of air inside, soft, tasty. A little charing on the crust, but that was me leaving it a little long close to the coals. I don‘t mind that, as I think it adds to the flavour.

[daidensacha]

If the bottoms are cooking to fast relative to the topping, get the bottom where you want then with a banjo peel, raise the pie towards the top of the dome to broil the top. I do this often when people overload the pizzas and the bottom is done but the top not. The dome temps are substantially higher so it browns the topping quickly.

It was all a bit rushed, not ideal for me, as the oven tools I ordered were not delivered and my family were so looking forward to pizza, I made it and improvised with a short handle pizza peel, and piece of rebar. It was a little stupid, but I learned a lot.

I did try lifting the pizzas up, but with the short handle pizza peel it wasn’t possible to hold them there. I have no hair on my left hand now . The dome is 426mm high, so if I get the temp right, I should be able to time it so the tops and bottoms cook at the same time. The other night, it was 45 second pizza, way too fast. Oops.

I have all the proper tools now, and flour with 14% protein. I just made up some biga for a 100% biga recipe that I’ll do tomorrow and cook tomorrow night. So there will be no possibility the dough will be over proofed. It should be perfect.

I’ll also aim for a slightly cooler oven, 530 was really hot. Less coals, and I’ll feed the fire to have flame in the dome. My target temp for the floor will be around 430C.

Having worked in a pizza bar for 2 years, I’ll say I’m not a fan of overloading pizzas, and it wont happen in my oven when I’m around. Tomorrow I’ll take some photos, good or bad and share them.

I’ve been working on a spreadsheet calculator, that will calculate a biga dough recipe based on the parameters I enter for number of pizzas, ball weight, % of biga, biga hydration, total dough hydration, biga yeast %, dough yeast %. I’m using bakers percentages, and today I’m giving it a run for this next batch of dough. If there’s interest, I’d be happy to share it.

[UtahBeehiver]

If the bottoms are cooking to fast relative to the topping, get the bottom where you want then with a banjo peel, raise the pie towards the top of the dome to broil the top. I do this often when people overload the pizzas and the bottom is done but the top not. The dome temps are substantially higher so it browns the topping quickly.

[daidensacha]

First pizza in the oven, lots to learn

Yesterday I made and cooked my first pizzas in the oven. It was a learning experience. After a week of fires, I left it yesterday until 3pm to light a fire, which with the retained heat was really easy. Around 5.30 it was hot, over 500C on the dome, and near 500C on the floor. At times the dome was 530C, 540C, crazy hot. I over heated it for sure. Or didn’t give it time to cool down at least.

I pushed all the coals (a huge pile) to the left side, and cleaned the floor.

My dough was perhaps a little over done, 48 hours biga in the fridge at 5C, and the balls 24 hours in trays outside in 5C.

My pizza bases were burning really quick, almost as soon as they hit the floor. I think it was a combination of the floor being too hot, and the dough possibly over-proofed.

I added a couple of pieces of hardwood on the coals to fill the dome with fire, to try and cook the tops at the same time as the bottoms, but the bottoms were cooking to fast.

I cooked 7 pizzas, and the last one was perfect, bottom not burnt, and top just right, with melted mozzarella. The floor had cooled and I reduced the size of my mozzarella pieces so they melted faster.

I definitely need to work out the idea heat to cook pizza in this oven. Using the IR thermometer to measure the oven throughout the experience, I’m going to be aiming for a floor temp of around 410-420C. Temps over that just burnt the bases last night.

I’m open for input, or sharing of experience with this. Is there an ideal temp for the floor, for cooking pizza, or does it vary from oven to oven? How long to leave the pizza before turning it?

[daidensacha]

They are available online far cheaper and with different sized probes, but avoid the cheaper ones with very small (45mm) dials, they don't last long.
I have one on my mobile oven that I hire out, because folk renting it have no, or little experience working a WFO. I prefer my own senses for my home oven.
The probe should be flush with the inside surface of the dome. I have mine 1/2 way up the side of the dome. If there's flame directly under the probe, obviously it reads a bit higher. The probe should sit in a sleeve, mine is stainless which is epoxyed into a standard brass pipe fitting which the thermometer screws into.

I like your oven, very creative.

For now I’ve decided to hold off adding a thermometer. If I find one I’m happy with then I would consider it, but I’m not stressing about it.

I’m enjoying getting to know the oven, how it heats, and functions. Lots to learn, ultimately it will come down to experience.

I put the insulated stainless steel door in last night, while there were still coals burning. This morning when I opened it the dome temp was 357C, and there were still read coals in the ash. Hot enough that when I put kindling on the pile of ash it spontaneously ignited. I got the next fire going for the day, put the door in the front of the arch to slow down the combustion, and retain more of the heat in the dome.

Referring to your input on the door, it’s holding up well so far. This morning I noticed the inner face had expanded and buckled a little, but straightened out as it cooled and returned to a flat surface. The sides and welds are holding well and they haven’t buckled at all. The front of the door this morning was 24C, not hot but warm, and the handles cold.

With a warm window of weather for the week, I took advantage and finished rendering the front of the oven, and put a layer of render on the dome. Very happy this morning to see it set up well. I will do two more coats when I’m happy this coat has totally dried and the weather permits.

This morning the oven dome is totally clear of soot, and not taking more soot as I burn wood, yet. It’s the hottest it’s been so far. It’s really beautiful to see. The cleanest I have seen the dome, not only burnt away soot, but all other dirt as well. Hallelujah!!

My biga has been fermenting for almost 48 hours, so making up the dough tonight and plan on baking it tomorrow.