2024 Neapolitan oven build

[daidensacha]

Notes: Curing fires day 4

This morning first thing I took the flue cap to the manufacturers factory and he had some mesh welded on it. Good that’s done, and he did it gratis.

Yesterday after 7 hours of fire in the oven, I put the insulated stainless steel door right in the oven arch, totally closing it. There were some coals still burning in the pile of ash.

This morning, 17 hours later, I felt the front of the door with interest. It was warm in the middle without being hot, was easy to hold my hand on it. The handles were not warm or hot at all. Around the sides of the door it was around 60C, from the conducted heat. The inside face of the door was 160C. The door held its shape perfectly, without warping.

More interesting was when I measured the inside of the oven. The sides, and at every point of the dome it was the same temp, 200C. It’s like the heat held in the oven evenly dispersed in the bricks, so it was a uniform temp. My fire has been a little more than what I have been aiming for.

Directly above the fire at the top of the dome it is hottest while the wood is burning, with the flames hitting the dome. That temp varies a lot depending on whether the flames are hitting it, or if the wood has burnt down and the flames are low. It’s been up to 360C, down to 300 when I closed the oven, with the sides measuring 170C. As mentioned, that heat dispersed evenly and was 200C after 17 hours with the door on.

In the ash, I was surprised to see glowing coals still, given the door was closed cutting off the air flow.

Each day of fires it takes less fire to heat the oven. Seems that the retained heat is the foundation on which it builds and starts to heat again.

Might just put a chicken in this afternoon when I put the door on, and try david s recipe. Will give me some brownie points with my wife .

This is so much fun.

[Giovanni Rossi]

That was one of the things that surprised me when I started cooking with full fires. I have a probe in the brick on the opposite side of where I keep the fire. It generally takes 4-6 hours after I stop stoking for my dome to come to equilibrium...shows the difference in conduction properties of brick vs. metals.

[daidensacha]

Reading the dome vs IR Thermometer

I’ve been using an IR thermometer to measure the temperature, which gives me a temp albeit only the surface temp at that spot. I’m watching the dome with interest, and have started to realise I can’t trust the IR thermometer 100%. It gives me different readings depending on where I point it, top hottest, then floor, then the dome from the top center down to the sides gradually decreasing temperatures The top of the dome reads hotter when the flames are touching it, and cooler as soon as the wood burns down.

Russel mentioned a while back that the oven is ready for pizza when the dome is clean of soot. Or that’s what I understood anyway. My fires are getting hotter each day, and I noticed yesterday a spot in the top of the dome above the fire that was clear of soot when the fire is burning clean and hot. Today that spot was bigger, so I put my phone in to take a picture, and was surprised how beautiful it looked. Sharing that image with you below.

Looking at this image, I measured the dome and it was 400C. Hotter again than I wanted but my oven has been drying now for a few months covered and protected. While there is moisture in the dome under the v-p-crete, I’m pretty confident now that the bricks are getting dry. Last night with the door on the oven retaining heat, I noticed this morning that moisture had been venting from the inserted vent in the top of the dome. Seems to happen more when the heat evenly disperses in the dome. I don’t notice any moisture venting when I have the fire going, but it was there in the morning.

I’ll be honest and share I was on edge the first days wondering if the dome was going to crack. 4 days of fires later it has well tested and has held up perfectly so far.

Thanks to FB for the inspiration to build this oven, its so much fun.

[daidensacha]

That was one of the things that surprised me when I started cooking with full fires. I have a probe in the brick on the opposite side of where I keep the fire. It generally takes 4-6 hours after I stop stoking for my dome to come to equilibrium...shows the difference in conduction properties of brick vs. metals.

My first job was as a pizza cook for 2 years, seems a life time ago, 1982-84. It was a double decker electric oven, and we never really had to change the temp as it was thermostatically controlled. I do remember though when we were busy, opening the oven a lot how the temp changed and sometimes it was really hot. I used to reach right in with my arm and a spatula to move, turn or remove pizzas. It was always in and out to avoid burning my hand as it was hot. 3 seconds was about the max time I could keep my hand in.

I wanted to integrate a thermometer, but I just can’t decide where to put it, and to measure what? The dome bricks or the internal temp. As I’m not clear on that, I decided not to do it, and to go old school, to learn how to feel and read the oven. After 4 days of fires I started to learn already, and it will continue with experience. I’m sure I will make some bad food along the way learning to make good food. Part and parcel of the journey I guess.

[Giovanni Rossi]

I wanted to integrate a thermometer, but I just can’t decide where to put it, and to measure what? The dome bricks or the internal temp.

My door came with a thermometer that measures the air temp, albeit cooler than what it would be at the other parts of the interior.

I was very interested in retained heat cooking and knowing the temp of dome makes for some pretty accurate baking. The tip of the probe is ~70mm from the inside surface of the dome.

My dome generally starts to clear around 400-425C. Once I hit that, it doesn't take long to crack 530. No idea how hot it gets bc my IR doesn't read higher.

[daidensacha]

I was very interested in retained heat cooking and knowing the temp of dome makes for some pretty accurate baking. The tip of the probe is ~70mm from the inside surface of the dome.

My dome generally starts to clear around 400-425C. Once I hit that, it doesn't take long to crack 530. No idea how hot it gets bc my IR doesn't read higher.

That makes sense for me, to measure the dome retained heat once the heat has dispersed. I’m interested in making full use of the retained heat, for 4 days following heating it. Meat, bread, cakes. I will consider it once I have rendered the dome. Did you insert a sleeve in which you insert your probe, or just directly install the probe into the dome wall?

530C, is that the temp you target as ideal for baking pizza?

[MarkJerling]

I've been away. You've made fantastic progress. Well done!
Oven is looking great! Any pizzas yet?

[daidensacha]

I've been away. You've made fantastic progress. Well done!
Oven is looking great! Any pizzas yet?

Hi Mark. I made a batch of biga last night, mixing the dough Wednesday, baking the first pizza in it on Thursday.

Really excited I got to say. With the fires it’s performing beyond my expectations.

[rsandler]

That makes sense for me, to measure the dome retained heat once the heat has dispersed. I’m interested in making full use of the retained heat, for 4 days following heating it. Meat, bread, cakes. I will consider it once I have rendered the dome. Did you insert a sleeve in which you insert your probe, or just directly install the probe into the dome wall?

530C, is that the temp you target as ideal for baking pizza?

530C would be the temp at the peak of the dome (or rather, the temp of the dome is hotter still and Giovanni's IR thermometer only goes to 530C; my IR goes to 550C and my dome gets hotter than that too). The floor will be cooler, and you'd want it that way; 530C is much too hot. Traditionally the Neapolitan style is to cook at 480C (900F) at floor level, though I found with my ovens that that's too hot to be manageable. At 400-425C I can cook a great pizza in 2 minutes or less. The few times I've gotten near 480C, I could cook a pizza in 30 seconds--and burn it to a crisp in 35. Too much of a knife edge for me. Your mileage may vary! See what works for you.

[Giovanni Rossi]

Did you insert a sleeve in which you insert your probe, or just directly install the probe into the dome wall?

530C, is that the temp you target as ideal for baking pizza?

The thermometer was an add-on for the oven kit I used. It has a sleeve that is placed in the dome and the thermometer threads into it. The assembly is quite long and is designed to extend through the dome and read the internal air temp. I placed mine at an angle so the tip of the insert stayed in the brick. I had used 2 extra inches of blanket so that plus installing at an angle placed the face near the edge of the pericrete layer and made it more cosmetically appealing.

I try to keep my floor at 325-350C. I can't push the temp even close to Neapolitan temps bc I use some sugar and olive oil in my dough. That range works for me and allows me to maintain a 2 pizza rotation for large parties.

[daidensacha]

The thermometer was an add-on for the oven kit I used. It has a sleeve that is placed in the dome and the thermometer threads into it. The assembly is quite long and is designed to extend through the dome and read the internal air temp. I placed mine at an angle so the tip of the insert stayed in the brick. I had used 2 extra inches of blanket so that plus installing at an angle placed the face near the edge of the pericrete layer and made it more cosmetically appealing.

I try to keep my floor at 325-350C. I can't push the temp even close to Neapolitan temps bc I use some sugar and olive oil in my dough. That range works for me and allows me to maintain a 2 pizza rotation for large parties.

Looks very much like the thermometer and vent from the Melbourne Firebrick pizza oven. I saw they sell that thermometer on their website, but at Au$150 from memory, I think I can wait. Is it the same?

[daidensacha]

530C would be the temp at the peak of the dome (or rather, the temp of the dome is hotter still and Giovanni's IR thermometer only goes to 530C; my IR goes to 550C and my dome gets hotter than that too). The floor will be cooler, and you'd want it that way; 530C is much too hot. Traditionally the Neapolitan style is to cook at 480C (900F) at floor level, though I found with my ovens that that's too hot to be manageable. At 400-425C I can cook a great pizza in 2 minutes or less. The few times I've gotten near 480C, I could cook a pizza in 30 seconds--and burn it to a crisp in 35. Too much of a knife edge for me. Your mileage may vary! See what works for you.

The oven was 260C this morning when I removed the door, everywhere on the dome and the floor. Each day I am taking it higher, and today I reckon I could have put pizza in if I had dough ready.

Had a fire going for 7 hours today, and the sides of the dome were 520C, the top of the dome unreadable as my IR goes to 550 but it was higher I think. The floor was was around 430 at that time.

I guess I’ll just find what works best for me, as I get to know the oven. It was nice to see the dome completely clear for the first time today. Thursday it will get its first test with pizza. I will be wary of burning it, although I think that will be part of learning.

[Giovanni Rossi]

Looks very much like the thermometer and vent from the Melbourne Firebrick pizza oven. I saw they sell that thermometer on their website, but at Au$150 from memory, I think I can wait. Is it the same?

It is, and is it was $$. it was my primary 2022 Christmas present . I used Ben's kit and did a fair amount of customization.

[david s]

They are available online far cheaper and with different sized probes, but avoid the cheaper ones with very small (45mm) dials, they don't last long.
I have one on my mobile oven that I hire out, because folk renting it have no, or little experience working a WFO. I prefer my own senses for my home oven.
The probe should be flush with the inside surface of the dome. I have mine 1/2 way up the side of the dome. If there's flame directly under the probe, obviously it reads a bit higher. The probe should sit in a sleeve, mine is stainless which is epoxyed into a standard brass pipe fitting which the thermometer screws into.

[daidensacha]

They are available online far cheaper and with different sized probes, but avoid the cheaper ones with very small (45mm) dials, they don't last long.
I have one on my mobile oven that I hire out, because folk renting it have no, or little experience working a WFO. I prefer my own senses for my home oven.
The probe should be flush with the inside surface of the dome. I have mine 1/2 way up the side of the dome. If there's flame directly under the probe, obviously it reads a bit higher. The probe should sit in a sleeve, mine is stainless which is epoxyed into a standard brass pipe fitting which the thermometer screws into.

I like your oven, very creative.

For now I’ve decided to hold off adding a thermometer. If I find one I’m happy with then I would consider it, but I’m not stressing about it.

I’m enjoying getting to know the oven, how it heats, and functions. Lots to learn, ultimately it will come down to experience.

I put the insulated stainless steel door in last night, while there were still coals burning. This morning when I opened it the dome temp was 357C, and there were still read coals in the ash. Hot enough that when I put kindling on the pile of ash it spontaneously ignited. I got the next fire going for the day, put the door in the front of the arch to slow down the combustion, and retain more of the heat in the dome.

Referring to your input on the door, it’s holding up well so far. This morning I noticed the inner face had expanded and buckled a little, but straightened out as it cooled and returned to a flat surface. The sides and welds are holding well and they haven’t buckled at all. The front of the door this morning was 24C, not hot but warm, and the handles cold.

With a warm window of weather for the week, I took advantage and finished rendering the front of the oven, and put a layer of render on the dome. Very happy this morning to see it set up well. I will do two more coats when I’m happy this coat has totally dried and the weather permits.

This morning the oven dome is totally clear of soot, and not taking more soot as I burn wood, yet. It’s the hottest it’s been so far. It’s really beautiful to see. The cleanest I have seen the dome, not only burnt away soot, but all other dirt as well. Hallelujah!!

My biga has been fermenting for almost 48 hours, so making up the dough tonight and plan on baking it tomorrow.